A read of actual play threads about Burning Empires and The Burning Wheel leads me to believe that, for many people, actually *playing* RPGs is probably the least entertaining aspect. The BE Thread on RPG.Net is especially illustrative of this, as the group has apparently had one actual session since the thread started in early October, along with some awkwardness over how it actually went down.
Now I have this buddy, Rob, who likes to some up with very, very detailed campaign outlines, along with bull sessions and maps and things. I haven’t actually played a game with him in about six years. This is nothing new, and is intimately familiar to people who play Hero and GURPS, which are probably the big “woulda, coulda” RPGs.
I suppose I could could crack a joke about these games being perfect for people who’ve been burned playing RPGs, because they are complex enough to involve you almost indefinitely without sullying the experience with play. A sufficiently high concept can do this too. Mage was rife with discussion from people with intricately detailed ideas that would never, ever get turned into real game sessions.
I think there is a significant group of RPG players who are like Rob, and somewhat like the people I’ve been reading about, for whom the messy, non-ideal phase of actually playing an RPG is probably the least interesting part of the experience. There’s probably a market for these kinds of players for games that are probably a lot like Baldur’s Gate but with strong control over the initial setup. Actually, think of it as a combination of Baldur’s Gate and Civilization, mated with some kind of AI that generates stories. Player intervention would be scene and chapter-based instead of turn-based.
Failing that, someone really should design software for BW/BE.
I actually purchased Burning Wheel because I was sick of looking up rules on a regular basis in our D&D game (the problem I think had to do with just too many books and supplements).
After reading the rules I’m still not sure how anything is simplified at all. It’s one of those “nice to read” rulebooks that, you’re right, I’ll probably never use for play.
I must admit that we’ve had a lot of success with Shadowrun 4th edition and it’s simplified rules. I’m sure we sometimes call for the wrong tests here and there (especially when it comes to hacking), but all told it’s a pretty easy system.
I think this is a pretty funny post because when I was younger I didn’t have much of a playing group. So I would buy these complex games and create these complex worlds that never got played. Were they for my own edification?
Running Burning Wheel was my first foray into “indie” games and the players kept their heads inside the rulebook when it wasn’t their scene. I played a BE one-shot at a minicon recently and it was entertaining, but again the scope and execution were confusing.
I think BW and BE could be a lot of fun for a long-form campaign with a GM who really has the rules down and is willing to push the players. But that’s a lot of work. Sometimes I just want a simple evening with my friends over a simple game like MLWM or the Roach. I guess I’m just warming up to the possibilities of narrative play.
Kinder, gentler buzz here.
I basically agree with you w/r/t games like HERO and GURPS. I’m prepping a Star HERO right now, and the whole process is sort of like researching a very enjoyable term paper. Thankfully, I know that I’m actually going to play (we start in December). This si basically the “toy” (as opposed to “game”) aspect of many RPGs, i.e., “Let’s see what this modeling engine can do.” That, or the joys some people get from getting their inner Tolkien on creating settings.
However…
I think it’s unfair to single out BW and, especially, BE in this regard. (I realize it’s possible that by “least entertaining,” you don’t mean “not entertaining at all,” but anyway).
BE, in particular, is designed to be played. World creation is essentially group setting creation; it’s not intended to be done by a GM sitting alone at home. Also, once the world is done and the PCs and Figures of Note are good to go, there’s really no “homework” for anyone to do. The GM makes a planetary web and you’re basically good to go for the rest of the campaign.
(Consequently, I don’t think BE software is all that necessary. Chargen software might, but worldgen software would be inappropriate.)
Basically, I think it’s inaccurate to link complexity to “toy”-ness. It’s applicable for “erector set” systems like HERO or deep-setting games, as this is all pre-game stuff. BW and BE’s complex bits are almost all during-game. Even with BW, there’s not a whole lot of D&D-style setting creation to do if you don’t already have some PCs with Beliefs to react to. The nature of the game will more than likely blow away the work you do anyway.
Anyway, if you want to read plenty of actual play threads for BW/BE where the play is the main aspect, poke around RPG.net some more or head to the BW forums. The one you’re citing seems like an anomaly, IME.
Also, FWIW, my experience with both games does not match the other commentors’. As indie games go, it’s complex, but as most mainstream games go, pfft! I’ve played in and run demos with newbies and it was cake. No four-hour pixelbitching like in my D&D and HERO games.
Also, is this the thread you’re referring to?
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=290247
I got Burning Wheel earlier this year since I’d heard so many good things about it. It was a good read but as I read through it, I started to become overwhelmed by the rules, and I put the book down in favour of some lighter games like Dogs in the Vineyard and Shadow of Yesterday.
But you know what? That was my mistake. Burning Wheel actually says right in the book, don’t try to read all these rules, just start playing and start piecing things together as you go. And I think in truth, in actual play, the rules are simpler than say d20 or whatever. Imagine if you sat down trying to read through and remember all the spells in the Player’s Handbook? The problem was at the time, I didn’t have anyone to try out BW with, and it’s not a game that makes any sense by yourself. (Even character creation is meant to be done as a group exercise, with everyone making suggestions.)
Fast forward to a few weeks ago. I’d just got Burning Empires and brought it to my weekly game night to show off. But it turned out one guy didn’t show up, we didn’t want to play our Dogs campaign without him. So everyone was like, let’s play that!
I’d only read about the first quarter of BE, so was a little hesitant, but everyone was so psyched I decided to give it a chance. We burned up our world in under 3 hours, and that world-burning session was incredibly fun. We all felt really attached to this world we’d just created together.
I did find the work of burning up the 3 main antagonist NPCs a bit tough – it took longer than I thought. But after that there’s very little GM prep to do – for the rest of the campaign. Maybe just some random musing each week about what your NPC’s plans are, but you don’t really need to even write anything down.
We’ve played one session, which was awesome, and are scheduled to play again this weekend. We’re still learning some of the rules as a group but man, it’s fun.
I was the anonymous who posted awhile back and I got a chance to play BW and BE as demoed by Luke himself last night. Man I gotta change my tune now.
M Lucas hit it on the nose when he noted that the rules are not designed to be played all at once. It’s better if you start small and start adding things as you go.
Feel free to check out my AP notes on Luke’s site: http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=12
(Luke sighting at EndGame in Oakland)
Chris B.
I’ve got to change my tune as well. Burning Empires is complex, but for some reason it helped my grok Burning Wheel a lot better.
And we’re playing Thursdays now.
Just goes to show, you never know till you actually try it I suppose. Egg on my face!
In light of the runaway popularity of Dwarf Fortress this seems strangely prophetic.