<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: You Can&#8217;t Do That in RPGs: a History</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.mobunited.com/mobunitedmedia/2009/12/17/you-cant-do-that-in-rpgs-a-history/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.mobunited.com/mobunitedmedia/2009/12/17/you-cant-do-that-in-rpgs-a-history/</link>
	<description>Killing Someone Else&#039;s Darlings</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2012 00:06:55 -0800</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.4</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Scholar-Gipsy</title>
		<link>http://www.mobunited.com/mobunitedmedia/2009/12/17/you-cant-do-that-in-rpgs-a-history/comment-page-1/#comment-2979</link>
		<dc:creator>Scholar-Gipsy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Oct 2011 02:07:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mobunited.com/mobunitedmedia/?p=523#comment-2979</guid>
		<description>This is the smartest characterization of the &lt;i&gt;soi-disant&lt;/i&gt; indie/storygames movement I have ever read. Well done.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is the smartest characterization of the <i>soi-disant</i> indie/storygames movement I have ever read. Well done.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Synapse Design Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Cubism</title>
		<link>http://www.mobunited.com/mobunitedmedia/2009/12/17/you-cant-do-that-in-rpgs-a-history/comment-page-1/#comment-1053</link>
		<dc:creator>Synapse Design Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Cubism</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 May 2010 17:31:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mobunited.com/mobunitedmedia/?p=523#comment-1053</guid>
		<description>[...] for everything and adjudicating game mechanics is a long and tedious process. Some players may believe that if there isnt a rule for something, it actually cannot be done. The relevant skill or ability must be determined, if your character doesnt have that skill, you [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] for everything and adjudicating game mechanics is a long and tedious process. Some players may believe that if there isnt a rule for something, it actually cannot be done. The relevant skill or ability must be determined, if your character doesnt have that skill, you [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: charlequin</title>
		<link>http://www.mobunited.com/mobunitedmedia/2009/12/17/you-cant-do-that-in-rpgs-a-history/comment-page-1/#comment-573</link>
		<dc:creator>charlequin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Dec 2009 21:10:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mobunited.com/mobunitedmedia/?p=523#comment-573</guid>
		<description>And which is not to say that there&#039;s anything wrong whatsoever with games that are fun to play at a convention with people you don&#039;t know, especially since that can certainly be an excellent way to &lt;i&gt;become&lt;/i&gt; friends with someone, but as someone who has GMed for friends and at conventions I am looking to accomplish something very different in each case...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And which is not to say that there&#8217;s anything wrong whatsoever with games that are fun to play at a convention with people you don&#8217;t know, especially since that can certainly be an excellent way to <i>become</i> friends with someone, but as someone who has GMed for friends and at conventions I am looking to accomplish something very different in each case&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: charlequin</title>
		<link>http://www.mobunited.com/mobunitedmedia/2009/12/17/you-cant-do-that-in-rpgs-a-history/comment-page-1/#comment-572</link>
		<dc:creator>charlequin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Dec 2009 21:07:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mobunited.com/mobunitedmedia/?p=523#comment-572</guid>
		<description>I think it&#039;s really important that people can get hurt in play, basically. I push thematic material that I know cuts to the heart of actual emotional issues my players have and have been pushed myself through situations where I was uncomfortable and emotionally stretched because it&#039;s worth it to do that. Sealing off potential miscommunications and injuries is overly santizing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it&#8217;s really important that people can get hurt in play, basically. I push thematic material that I know cuts to the heart of actual emotional issues my players have and have been pushed myself through situations where I was uncomfortable and emotionally stretched because it&#8217;s worth it to do that. Sealing off potential miscommunications and injuries is overly santizing.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: charlequin</title>
		<link>http://www.mobunited.com/mobunitedmedia/2009/12/17/you-cant-do-that-in-rpgs-a-history/comment-page-1/#comment-571</link>
		<dc:creator>charlequin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Dec 2009 21:03:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mobunited.com/mobunitedmedia/?p=523#comment-571</guid>
		<description>The ultra-restrictive games you are talking about have an underlying design intention that their authors don&#039;t really acknowledge explicitly: they&#039;re designed to be played with people you don&#039;t trust who you met on the Internet in single convention sessions.

In my experience, these games explicitly trade away the benefits of trust-based gaming with familiar partners (like many of the sublime moments of brilliance that arise purely as a reflection of creative individuals riffing off of each other in the pursuit of art) for a rules system that provides a mediocre but functional simulation of familiarity. Because these games do what it says on the tin you can weed out people with unreasonably selfish demands upfront and subsume reasonable demands without having to stop and address each one (because the rules just tell you your demand isn&#039;t met and you move on.)

I, myself, find medium-to-long-term play with friends (i.e. individuals I trust creatively and emotionally) significantly more interesting and therefore find that ultra-restrictive games are less useful than broader games that leave room for riffing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The ultra-restrictive games you are talking about have an underlying design intention that their authors don&#8217;t really acknowledge explicitly: they&#8217;re designed to be played with people you don&#8217;t trust who you met on the Internet in single convention sessions.</p>
<p>In my experience, these games explicitly trade away the benefits of trust-based gaming with familiar partners (like many of the sublime moments of brilliance that arise purely as a reflection of creative individuals riffing off of each other in the pursuit of art) for a rules system that provides a mediocre but functional simulation of familiarity. Because these games do what it says on the tin you can weed out people with unreasonably selfish demands upfront and subsume reasonable demands without having to stop and address each one (because the rules just tell you your demand isn&#8217;t met and you move on.)</p>
<p>I, myself, find medium-to-long-term play with friends (i.e. individuals I trust creatively and emotionally) significantly more interesting and therefore find that ultra-restrictive games are less useful than broader games that leave room for riffing.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: magicbox</title>
		<link>http://www.mobunited.com/mobunitedmedia/2009/12/17/you-cant-do-that-in-rpgs-a-history/comment-page-1/#comment-557</link>
		<dc:creator>magicbox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Dec 2009 20:42:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mobunited.com/mobunitedmedia/?p=523#comment-557</guid>
		<description>I would argue that narrative focus in an RPG is mostly based on character and, due to the presence of players, the evolution of those characters due to both other players and GM stimuli, be that NPCs or larger game events.  Don&#039;t get me wrong.  I&#039;m no expert on different systems so I&#039;ll defer to others on that issue.  I tend to look for broad systems that can work on multiple levels and try to make them work for the games that I think my players will want to play.  To be honest, I was shocked when Malcolm explained to me that many modern RPGs are designed around not just specific genres, but specific scenarios dealing with specific stimuli.

But narrative focus should be driven by the interests of the characters in my opinion and thus having a character decide to do something wacky that could push a carefully constructed story off the rails is just something you have to roll with as a GM.  To be sure, the consequences of ignoring what to you as the GM was the major focus of the game should be felt, but if players get hooked into a different aspect of your game world, then kudos for designing or using a game world that is interesting enough to get them into different facets of it, not just the aspect that&#039;s thrown as the players as the &quot;narrative focus&quot;.

To your comment about rulesets, I agree to an extent.  You use the ruleset that works best for the forms of games that your group wants to play, but I&#039;d argue that if you&#039;re using a ruleset that is so inflexible that you can&#039;t do something with it to surprise your characters then that&#039;s a shame.  And if your group is so petty that if you as the GM &quot;break&quot; the rules to allow for elements of narrative and they get upset because of that, then you need a better group.  Hell, 4E D&amp;D codified mook rules (&quot;minions&quot;) in part so that you could have battles against lots of mooks but also so that if the DM wants to dramatically kill off some NPC character, the players can justify it as &quot;Oh, he must have been like a minion&quot;, likely because someone had the same scenario in 2E D&amp;D and their players said &quot;No way!  He must have had at least 20 hit points!  There&#039;s no way a dagger could have killed him!&quot;.  Anyway, now I&#039;m rambling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would argue that narrative focus in an RPG is mostly based on character and, due to the presence of players, the evolution of those characters due to both other players and GM stimuli, be that NPCs or larger game events.  Don&#8217;t get me wrong.  I&#8217;m no expert on different systems so I&#8217;ll defer to others on that issue.  I tend to look for broad systems that can work on multiple levels and try to make them work for the games that I think my players will want to play.  To be honest, I was shocked when Malcolm explained to me that many modern RPGs are designed around not just specific genres, but specific scenarios dealing with specific stimuli.</p>
<p>But narrative focus should be driven by the interests of the characters in my opinion and thus having a character decide to do something wacky that could push a carefully constructed story off the rails is just something you have to roll with as a GM.  To be sure, the consequences of ignoring what to you as the GM was the major focus of the game should be felt, but if players get hooked into a different aspect of your game world, then kudos for designing or using a game world that is interesting enough to get them into different facets of it, not just the aspect that&#8217;s thrown as the players as the &#8220;narrative focus&#8221;.</p>
<p>To your comment about rulesets, I agree to an extent.  You use the ruleset that works best for the forms of games that your group wants to play, but I&#8217;d argue that if you&#8217;re using a ruleset that is so inflexible that you can&#8217;t do something with it to surprise your characters then that&#8217;s a shame.  And if your group is so petty that if you as the GM &#8220;break&#8221; the rules to allow for elements of narrative and they get upset because of that, then you need a better group.  Hell, 4E D&amp;D codified mook rules (&#8220;minions&#8221;) in part so that you could have battles against lots of mooks but also so that if the DM wants to dramatically kill off some NPC character, the players can justify it as &#8220;Oh, he must have been like a minion&#8221;, likely because someone had the same scenario in 2E D&amp;D and their players said &#8220;No way!  He must have had at least 20 hit points!  There&#8217;s no way a dagger could have killed him!&#8221;.  Anyway, now I&#8217;m rambling.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.mobunited.com/mobunitedmedia/2009/12/17/you-cant-do-that-in-rpgs-a-history/comment-page-1/#comment-556</link>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Dec 2009 17:42:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mobunited.com/mobunitedmedia/?p=523#comment-556</guid>
		<description>Isn&#039;t this just lowered expectations?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t this just lowered expectations?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.mobunited.com/mobunitedmedia/2009/12/17/you-cant-do-that-in-rpgs-a-history/comment-page-1/#comment-555</link>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Dec 2009 17:42:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mobunited.com/mobunitedmedia/?p=523#comment-555</guid>
		<description>Games provide focus, but focus doesn&#039;t need to be fixed or limited for all time because we picked a particular game. In fact, doing so eliminates much of what the tabletop RPG form has to offer, sets up an assumption that participants can&#039;t trust each other without artificial aid, and is generally a downer.  Analogies from books and film don&#039;t work because RPGs aren&#039;t books or films -- they&#039;re immediate works whose creators aren&#039;t hiding behind the medium, but are right in front of you, bringing their relationship with you into the creative act. You can choose to acknowledge the immediate, intimate nature of the medium, or you can hide behind instructions in the text.

The indie community often talks about how Golden-Ruling, multiple agendas, fiat and such are *the* sources of pain. But if you actually observe poorly functioning games in the wild, that&#039;s not what&#039;s going on. Instead, you have people working very hard to *adhere* to procedures in the text (rules-lawyering) and mostly stick to a common agenda, but they have little true empathy for one another. This is what leads to shouting matches in teenage D&amp;D games. When I&#039;ve observed certain indie games in action (though not all of them end up like this) at conventions, the shouting is replaced by stony silence and joyless, perfunctory decision making.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Games provide focus, but focus doesn&#8217;t need to be fixed or limited for all time because we picked a particular game. In fact, doing so eliminates much of what the tabletop RPG form has to offer, sets up an assumption that participants can&#8217;t trust each other without artificial aid, and is generally a downer.  Analogies from books and film don&#8217;t work because RPGs aren&#8217;t books or films &#8212; they&#8217;re immediate works whose creators aren&#8217;t hiding behind the medium, but are right in front of you, bringing their relationship with you into the creative act. You can choose to acknowledge the immediate, intimate nature of the medium, or you can hide behind instructions in the text.</p>
<p>The indie community often talks about how Golden-Ruling, multiple agendas, fiat and such are *the* sources of pain. But if you actually observe poorly functioning games in the wild, that&#8217;s not what&#8217;s going on. Instead, you have people working very hard to *adhere* to procedures in the text (rules-lawyering) and mostly stick to a common agenda, but they have little true empathy for one another. This is what leads to shouting matches in teenage D&#038;D games. When I&#8217;ve observed certain indie games in action (though not all of them end up like this) at conventions, the shouting is replaced by stony silence and joyless, perfunctory decision making.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Emperor of Monkeys</title>
		<link>http://www.mobunited.com/mobunitedmedia/2009/12/17/you-cant-do-that-in-rpgs-a-history/comment-page-1/#comment-554</link>
		<dc:creator>Emperor of Monkeys</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Dec 2009 16:53:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mobunited.com/mobunitedmedia/?p=523#comment-554</guid>
		<description>This isn&#039;t about characters, it&#039;s about narrative focus. Try playing out the Avatar scenario in a system like Carry, and it&#039;ll work just fine. What it won&#039;t do is let you turn a game that focuses on people and the weird stresses of war into one about how awesome it is to have a big gun and shoot people, because it&#039;s not set up to tell those stories.

To continue with your example - if I&#039;d gone out to see Avatar expecting it to have the narrative quality of, say, The Word For World Is Forest, of course I would have been disappointed. It&#039;s a fucking action flick and a two-hours effects demo, and on that basis it is untouchable. I went in with reasonable expectations and I came out satisfied.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This isn&#8217;t about characters, it&#8217;s about narrative focus. Try playing out the Avatar scenario in a system like Carry, and it&#8217;ll work just fine. What it won&#8217;t do is let you turn a game that focuses on people and the weird stresses of war into one about how awesome it is to have a big gun and shoot people, because it&#8217;s not set up to tell those stories.</p>
<p>To continue with your example &#8211; if I&#8217;d gone out to see Avatar expecting it to have the narrative quality of, say, The Word For World Is Forest, of course I would have been disappointed. It&#8217;s a fucking action flick and a two-hours effects demo, and on that basis it is untouchable. I went in with reasonable expectations and I came out satisfied.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Emperor of Monkeys</title>
		<link>http://www.mobunited.com/mobunitedmedia/2009/12/17/you-cant-do-that-in-rpgs-a-history/comment-page-1/#comment-553</link>
		<dc:creator>Emperor of Monkeys</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Dec 2009 16:46:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mobunited.com/mobunitedmedia/?p=523#comment-553</guid>
		<description>Well, think of it this way: the only reason to have rules is to provide focus and surprise the players (otherwise, you&#039;re not playing a game - you&#039;re writing a novel as a group), and a ruleset is an implicit agreement among players about what they want to focus on, and what kinds of surprises they want and don&#039;t want.

You pick the set of surprises you feel comfortable with beforehand. If you go out to see a movie, or you read a book, you come at it with certain expectation of what it will and will not provide.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, think of it this way: the only reason to have rules is to provide focus and surprise the players (otherwise, you&#8217;re not playing a game &#8211; you&#8217;re writing a novel as a group), and a ruleset is an implicit agreement among players about what they want to focus on, and what kinds of surprises they want and don&#8217;t want.</p>
<p>You pick the set of surprises you feel comfortable with beforehand. If you go out to see a movie, or you read a book, you come at it with certain expectation of what it will and will not provide.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

